Jerry Hines, Manager (Craig Morgan, Trey Calloway)

You can learn signal flow in a classroom, but you only learn touring when the bus doors close and the clock never stops. We sit down with Jerry Hines, a Tennessee-based tour manager turned artist manager, to unpack the behind-the-scenes reality of building a career in live music production and artist development. Jerry shares how a single phone call in 2004 launched him from side jobs into the deep end as a monitor engineer, then into production, front of house, and eventually the high-accountability world of tour management.

We talk about what makes monitors such a brutal seat, the kind of mistakes you only make once, and what it feels like mixing under pressure when the stakes are reputation-level high. Jerry breaks down arena vs outdoor show challenges, why relationships matter as much as gear, and the moment the job stops being “about the music” and becomes the business: budgets, staffing, leadership, and being the steady hand when everyone else is spiraling.

Then we pivot into artist management and the difference between operating with certainty for an established act like Craig Morgan and selling belief for a developing artist like Trey Calloway. Jerry explains how Broken Compass Management was born, the meaning behind the name, and what it takes to guide an artist through a path that’s rarely straight. We also dig into modern music industry shifts like independent strategy, record label leverage, and how AI could reshape management and touring.

Subscribe for more real conversations with the people who make the music business run, share this with a friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Episode Links

• Craig Morgan: https://www.craigmorgan.com/
• Trey Calloway: https://treycallowaymusic.com/
• Trey Calloway: https://jayfranze.com/episode108/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Jay Franze 0:23

Now, new journalists, Jay Franzi, and Tiffany Mason. And we are coming to you live. I am Jay Forenzi, and uh with me tonight, the Christine to my Dan, my beautiful co-host with Mr. Tiffany Mason.

Tiffany Mason 0:42

Good evening, Jay. Good evening, crew members.

Jay Franze 0:45

If you are new to the show, this is your source for the latest news, reviews, and interviews. And if you would like to join in, comment, or fire off any questions, please head over to jforenzy.com. All right, my friend, tonight we have a very special guest with us. We have an artist manager hailing from the great state of Tennessee. We have Jerry Hines. Jerry, my friend, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Well, it's my honor. I appreciate this. I've been uh looking forward to this for a while.

Jay Franze 1:15

Well, fantastic. We are excited to talk to you. Let's just start off. We've known each other for a while now. I would like to know how you transitioned into working in management.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Oh wow. Well, I guess we'll start back uh when I met you, right? So to what, 2004? That's when I signed up for uh SAE. It's only an hour show, Jerry. I'll try to be quick. How far back are we going? Yeah, so okay, we'll we'll uh we'll we'll do the the the cliff notes here, we'll do uh all that stuff. But so 2004 got into it as far as management. So, Jay, the last time you saw me and I was in your class humbly and trying to learn everything I could. I uh

The Walmart Call That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_03 2:05

worked with a lot of various studios in town making bagels and coffee and not making any money. Was lucky enough on a job site in Dixon, Tennessee, where I was working construction at the time because I didn't think this was going to uh pan out, so I had to uh I had to pay the rent. I got a call from a tour manager at the time, uh gentleman named Brian Tapley, dear friend of mine. Uh he was Craig's tour manager at the time. This was about December of 2004. So I got on that bus and they needed a monitor engineer, so I was like, yeah, that's roll. Met at the Charlotte Pike Walmart in um Nashville, Tennessee. I've been on that bus ever since, man.

Jay Franze 2:43

And as far as getting to a managerial role, we got plenty of questions in between between the start and Walmart. So you said monitoring engineer.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Jay Franze 2:59

So, first of all, we know how that came about now, but yeah, how comfortable did you feel taking on a role as a monitor engineer at that time? At that time, I was faking it till I made it, sir. Because it is not your your typical approach. It's not even like doing front-of-house mixing for that matter.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

No, sir, no. It's it's uh from my experience, 22, 23 years on the road, it's the worst seat to have in the business.

Jay Franze 3:24

Trust me, I've been there. I don't it's not a seat that I I look forward to going back to at any point. Sure. So how long did you do that for?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

So that was what from 2004 to about 2008. Then I became his production manager and then front house engineer.

Jay Franze 3:43

Okay, so production manager first.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Uh uh, well, so first was a modern engineer and a stage manager and guitar tech. So, what they don't teach you in the class that you so eloquently just expressed to us as young adults, when you go on the road, you wear mini hats. So when when I got that that gig with Craig, literally it was like, I thought I was gonna run this 32 GH12, this Yamaha they had, and some PSM 600s that had two channels, and if you didn't have both channels working, you were shit out of luck and we're going back to Wedges, right? So beyond that, I was uh running the stage and guitar teching. And oddly enough, I knew about three chords and the truth back then, didn't even know how to tune a guitar, but for some reason I was the uh guitar tech as well. So cheers to that.

Jay Franze 4:31

Alright, so again, you're going into an unfamiliar role. How nervous are you doing that?

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Completely and utterly at at that time point, you know, I had a married young couple, baby on the way. Didn't know if any of this was gonna work out. And I just made it happen. It was like either do or die, and I had to do for my family and myself. What did you do to learn the role? Messed up a lot. A lot of mistakes, right? I mean, uh, you know, you there there's not a book for that, Jay. There's nothing that you guys could have ever prepared us for. Uh, when your boots on the ground like that, and it's something that you're just not familiar with, and you think you're prepared for it until you step in those boots, it's nothing that can prepare you for it. Not a person, not a book, not a story. You just have to do it.

Jay Franze 5:26

And how understanding was the guitar player?

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Oh, he's still not understanding. I mean, which guitar player? They're all the same. Uh, and and I and I've loved many of them, and they're all great. But uh, you know, that's the uh next best thing from an artist in your career is the uh lead guitar player.

unknown 5:50

Yeah.

Jay Franze 5:51

What was the biggest mess up at that time?

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Wow. Um I'm

Learning Monitors By Messing Up

SPEAKER_03 6:00

gonna be real with you and say not believing in myself. Right? So that that led to many mess ups, right? So if I'd have been more confident in my ability and just more eager to uh to learn and and be kind of just coherent with what everything was going on and be translucent with my boss and and tour manager, that would have probably saved me a lot of heartache just by building relationships with them. But as far as a day-to-day basis, I mean, you're always going to plug in the wrong cable, you're always gonna have to assign the wrong RF, turn something up too much, something down too much, not make it sound as good as uh a record rep wants it to sound. I mean, it's there's multiple ways to ruin that job. But I I but I think that the friendships and the relationships you build, camaraderie, all that stuff, it kind of outweighs all of that stuff.

Jay Franze 6:51

I mean, it's crazy. I I've spent my time in the studio. I did go on the road a couple times. I always say the road is so much different than the studio. The studio the studio, as much as you're worried about time and money, because everything costs a lot of money and you're wasting a lot of time. Sure. But when you're live, you have no other options other than to fix it and get it going quickly.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yes, sir.

Jay Franze 7:16

So it was never something that I'd I felt comfortable in. I did a handful of the live shows, but that was more than enough for me. Right. So you did all that, and then you end up at front of house.

SPEAKER_05 7:27

Mm-hmm.

Jay Franze 7:27

So now you're front of house. What was the most challenging thing to that role?

SPEAKER_03 7:33

So

Front Of House Under Real Pressure

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I think the most trying time I've had as a front of house engineer was probably back in 2010. We were out with a young lady, a lot of people don't uh probably don't know, Carrie Underwood, right? So, and who is it? Yeah, exactly right, right? And so uh Craig had to open his spot for her, and uh he was on the same label at the time. And the CEO and the gentleman that ran Sony at the time was Joe Galani. And if you ever met that guy, he was definitely like a New York mafia style individual, Jay. He really was that like no nonsensical kind of guy. Well, long story short, on my fingers. No, no, not at all. I've I I've I've I've respect it, and it's just it's one of those things that's like uh those those people demand respect, and uh you just feel like eager to give it back to them. And and the way that I was able to do it, it was with the uh the performance of the night and my execution on how we did it. So, Madison Square Garden, I never forget it. I'm sitting there and Joe Galani's right behind me, like literally with all the BMG staff at the time. And I'm opening up, it's like this is the only time in the 60 shows that we've done with her, and I just feel his presence over me. I think that was the hardest time I had in my life just doing what I do on a daily basis, just paint by number stuff, and just really thinking about what I was doing when I normally don't. And at the end of the night, he just put his hand on my shoulder and said, Good job, son, and walked away. And I was like, Oh, oh my god. Yeah, I mean, because at that point, you know, when the the the the head of the label comes up to your artist, if you don't sound good out there, they're gonna know about it. And it's my fault. Right, of course. Yeah.

Jay Franze 9:21

Now we've talked about it several times on the show about the difference

Arenas Vs Outdoor Shows Reality

Jay Franze 9:25

between an arena versus a stadium, indoors versus outdoors. Can you tell us the challenges you had on the road mixing those two environments?

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Of course. I mean, I mean, whether it's uh being on the stage or or doing it in front of house, it's uh I mean that the math matters, right? And and elements do as well, and like when you're you're dealing with uh the sunrise, the sunset, the temperature, the distance, the speed, the wind, just the elements itself, as far as distance from RF standpoint, to uh to it sounding really, really good 60 feet in front of you, and then sound like complete, utter garbage, like you know, 50 feet behind you, and there's nothing you can do about it. You're at the mercy of the production. And you know, all those things just kind of make you realize you can only control and determine what you can. And if you realize that this is it, and I'm doing the best I can right here, then you kind of go with it. But I mean, each one is very different, Jay. There's not one that I prefer. I think indoors is uh a little bit more of a controlled environment, just like a studio. But outdoors has its uh it has its kind of its room to grow too because of it it lets some of your faults not be as audible. Because when you're indoors and something happens, if you mess it up, everybody hears it. Outdoors, it depends on the the proximity of the PA, the spread of it, what you're doing, how far the crowd is. Yeah, the more yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure.

Trading Sound For The Business

Jay Franze 10:57

All right, so somehow we realized okay, you go from monitors to stage to tech to front of house, but the whole reason you're here is because of your management. So now let's go ahead and go from Walmart to management.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Well, we're still at the dollar store, Jay, but anyway, but yeah, so it's it's so that would have been 2012, right? So at that point, I felt like I learned enough about Craig's business and his daily operations, and he was going through a time to where he was going to pick a new uh tour manager, and I just approached him and was like, hey, look, I'm you know, I'm tired of um just learning from everybody above me and and excelling. I want that opportunity, and and I just kind of instilled like trust and respect in him, and he did the same thing in me and just said, hey, if you take it, try it. If it doesn't work out, we'll go from there.

unknown 11:56

All right.

Jay Franze 11:57

So is that more intimidating for that role than the engineering roles? Absolutely. Okay, tell me why.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Uh, because it became a certain aspect to where it used to be just about the music, and it transformed right into the business. And the business element of it definitely at that time wasn't prepared for, wasn't uh wasn't knowledgeable enough to understand a lot of those aspects, and it was kind of like literally going back to school and and you're doing it on the fly.

Jay Franze 12:32

All right, tell us about some of those, some of the things you weren't prepared for.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Wow. Okay, well, I'll get to the brass tacks of it. But as a tour manager, so you uh when you're a production manager, yeah, you deal with some budgets. You you deal with some obstacles as far as production and stuff of that magnitude. When you become a tour manager and you're balancing the budget of a tour on how it operates, daily expenses, having employees when you were a coworker yourself, being the boss. I don't think there's there's there's anything that can prepare you for that. It's just a day-to-day kind of grind. I was lucky enough, I think, from my my upbringing and and just who I am as a person that I could shoulder it and kind of get through it. But that was probably the the the biggest obstacles. And then also as a tour manager, you learn and you grow and you you do you can do everything perfect. There's one thing they don't tell you about, and you you kind of have to be a therapist. You have to be a you're you're you're the guy, you're the captain, right? And and whether the bus door is open or closed, all those problems travel with you. And if you're not open enough and men enough and swallow your pride enough to know that you have those same kind of troubles at home, whether you're it's being a husband, a father, or your brother, or just a daily operational kind of thing, these people do too. But you're supposed to be the catalyst, you're supposed to be the guy that kind of uplifts everybody, puts everybody on the same level playing field to come out here, do a job for somebody that we're representing, and in return it represents us. And hopefully it's fruitful for us financially long term. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that I can pinpoint down that nobody trains you for this job, and there's literally not a book, a course, a college, or a person that done it before that

Becoming The Boss Changes Friendships

SPEAKER_03 14:20

can explain that to you until you actually experience it yourself.

Jay Franze 14:23

All right, you mentioned something in there I want to touch on, and that is that you were an employee yourself right before that. So, did your team look at you any different when you took on that role?

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Absolutely, man. Boy, what the the the struggles were immense. I lost some really, really, really good friends during that time period of that transition. They just couldn't handle the fact that you became the boss. No, sir. No, and I and but the the the the crazy thing about it is, Jay, is I I uh I understood. You know, I was kind of expecting some of that. I mean, some of the uh relationships that I lost, I just thought I never would. But you know, at the end of the day, it's a business. It's it's what we do. It's it's kind of the nature of it. You're gonna meet a lot of people in any organization, much unless it's music or working at Walmart or the dollar store or FedEx or you name it. I mean, you you always meet people and you love them and trust them, and they become your coworkers, and you think family, and then next minute they're gone, and the next batch come in and you gotta do the same thing again. Right?

Jay Franze 15:27

Well, at that point though, you you're earning respect on a different level. You're you've got respect of a team now that has never met you before. Of course. And I would think that's probably a little easier than the team that knew you as a coworker.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Yes, sir. You know it. It it is. It's a whole lot easier to uh to initially get their respect from day one and grow something new opposed to somebody knowing all your demons and and everything, whatever it may be.

Jay Franze 15:52

Well, I know you pretty well, and I don't think that you are the type of person that would that would act like the stereotypical boss. I think you would act like a leader, you would go in there and that you would not treat people differently because of your new role, that you're probably just as like you said, intimidated trying to learn your new role. You're just expecting everybody else to do what they were supposed to be doing all along.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Exactly right. And thank you for saying that. And that's that's what I I tried to do, and that's what I still try to do. And I just when when I get somebody that's that's trying to do what I did many years ago, if I can do anything in my power to help them get to the next level, I'm gonna do it because I know how hard it is. And a lot of people didn't have the opportunities or luck. I mean, hell, all of this is luck. Whether you're doing what we're doing right now tonight, or playing a guitar in a basement to a shed, to a bar, to uh amphitheater, we all hit a scratch off at some point because we're very far and in between uh the populace that gets to do this for a living.

Jay Franze 16:58

Well, I think there's a combination of that, right? I think yes, you're right. You have to be in the right place at the right time, but you also have to be prepared to accept those opportunities. Sure. So if you're not prepared, there's a very good chance you're gonna fall on your face. So for you, even though you were put in a role that you were not familiar with, whether it be monitors or front of house or even as a guitar tech, you might not have been familiar with those roles, but you were prepared for the moment. Absolutely. You were prepared to take on the challenge, you were prepared with a general set of knowledge that you were able to then apply to the different areas. So I think that's what your success can be

Pay, Trust, And Long-Term Roles

Jay Franze 17:35

attributed to. But you started talking about the budgeting. Let's start with with you. If you go from monitor to tech to front of house, are those all paid the same? Like are they all shift pay?

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Uh yeah, they are, but every row has its different kind of uh tier of uh, you know, I mean it's just like anything else in life. Like there's there's all tiers. So yeah, like to break it down, when I first started with Craig, uh and I'll be transparent with this. I mean, hell, he he don't care, but uh literally I made about $125 a show. Monitors, yeah.

Tiffany Mason 18:16

And you know, I think it's important we keep saying Craig, but I don't know if the audience knows.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

I'm sorry, okay. So Craig Morgan, Craig Morgan, right? So if if if they don't know, they can Google him. He's been out for uh for 25, 26 years. If you don't know him by now, you probably won't unless you search for him.

Jay Franze 18:33

Let's just say he is high enough on the chain that Carrie Underwood would open up for him.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Yeah, well, you look, he's he's he's a uh he's a legend, he's a a good friend, my best friend, and and a great business partner, and probably one of the best decisions I've made in my entire life, Jay. I'll just put it that. Very cool. Right, so but anyway, so so Craig Morgan, but yes, the the tears of it, and it's nothing to him. Like when you're growing with an artist, that's what you're doing, is growing. And the right kind of artist, you're going to make what's comparable to their business strategy on what they can afford, right? Right, sure. So, so at that point in time, I was making $125 a show and it equated to like $17,000, $18,000 a year. Right. And that and that's doing 90, 120 plus shows on the road away from your family. Yeah. So so yeah, so long story short, yes, of course. When you rank up and and and they put more trust in you to do a higher role of a job in their their organization, you're gonna make more money. I'll tell you this: the the monitor engineer to the tour manager, I'll take the tour manager any day.

Jay Franze 19:39

That's what I'm I'm leading towards here. Is you go from the monitors, you go to guitar tech, and you go to front house. Those are all paid by the show. So now, as a road manager, are you paid by the show or are you now salary? I'll salary.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Exactly. Yeah, for sure. But but just to piggytail on that, I I'm not only his tour manager, his his road manager, his personal assistant. Uh well, I mean, just all those things. He entrusts his entire life with me and all his other entities and businesses as well. So I'm a little bit different than your average guy just because of the longevity, I think. But man, I wouldn't, God, I wouldn't have traded for anything, Jay. Really. Well, what are you at? 22 years? 22, yeah.

Tiffany Mason 20:21

I mean, I think you have shown in your stair stepping through him growing his career that you're gonna be there. You know, you've obviously built some trust between the two of each other. So I think you have proven yourself that he can trust you in all those things.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Of course, yeah, but perception is everything, Tiffany. I've also been married for 30 years. So am I a good liar or am I good at what I do? Right? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm trying to be funny. All right. So

A Tour Manager Never Clocks Out

SPEAKER_03 21:00

look at Jay, keep keeping us back on track here. Yeah, we do what we can. Yeah.

Jay Franze 21:04

So the road manager can. Can you tell us what the day in a life is like?

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Wow. Uh I mean it differs, right? I mean, the the day never starts with that day, if that makes sense. As a tour manager, you're you're also you're always in advance of another day. Like today I'm working on three weeks from now, and yesterday I was working on two weeks from now. It's like today is never that day. But if you want to know an operational standpoint, it's like you're on call 24-7. That's why you're on a seller, right? It's not I wake up at nine and clock in and at five o'clock I'm done. It could be 6 30 in the morning, it could be 2 30 a.m. the next morning. And that's not just from your artist, that's from the management, that's from booking, that's from the business manager. That's maybe the publicist. Oh my god, he said something wrong on the interview y'all did today. And how can I fix it? It well, I can't because he already said it, but I'm sorry. But no, no, it's the day in the life of a tour manager's man is just be ready. I mean, just be willing and and able to fix the problems you wasn't aware of just 10 hours ago. Because whether it's your crew, your band, your artist, the management, the booking, the buyer, who knows? Everybody always has a the buyer. Oh, now we're we gotta have a definition of everything, right? Yeah, yeah. So the buyer. The buyer is legitimate. Yeah, I understand. So so a buyer, Tiffany, is somebody that's willing to pay Craig Morgan a fee to come perform at a venue that they choose, either by a charitable event, a city event to where funds are coming in, or just an individual purchaser that wants to book Craig Morgan to do a show in their town or venue or whatever it may be. Right? So, and then they have a promoter that helps promote it. And then you have staff from that. Man, we got we have to make the show really long, Jay, if we got to go through this route. I know.

unknown 23:07

I know.

Jay Franze 23:09

I I really toyed with the idea of not having her here tonight.

Tiffany Mason 23:14

Let's go back to 2004.

Jay Franze 23:16

I took her credentials away from her tonight, and she somehow joined anyway, so who knows? Yeah, well, I I like it anyway. So

Starting Over As An Artist Manager

Jay Franze 23:25

you're working as a road manager for Craig, but now all of a sudden you're taking on even another role. Sure. So can you tell us about your new role and what it's like managing an artist directly?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Man, I thought it would be very similar, but boy, am I wrong. It's uh it's like starting over, if you want to be honest. It's it's a uh it's like believing in something just like you do on a daily basis that already works, and then you try to kind of harness everything you've been doing with this artist in this role that's a little bit different than what you're doing, but implying that and maybe kind of hoping for the same results. But when you hit another role of a business, Jay, or you you do something different, for some reason people treat you different, or they they they just it's just a little bit different than before. Not good or bad, it's just different obstacles, it's different worries. I mean, as a young manager, you don't make anything zero dollars, right? I mean, uh for a typical manager, you're you're you're making 10 to 15 percent of a gross revenue of an artist. But when you're working with said artist and he's that guy that's not getting any kind of big traction or big shows or has a big song out yet, you don't really feel right taking 15% of their Broadway money, right? I mean, that's just not I mean if you want to be a complete asshole, I guess you could do it, and that's what makes you a bad manager, but that's just not the right path to go. You're you're trying to support this kid or this person, this man, and believe in them more so than anybody else. Like, like you're the biggest fan at that point. You're the meet and greet, and you're just hoping to try to entice millions and millions of people to believe in what you believe in. That's a hard that's a hard thing to do.

Jay Franze 25:19

So the artist we're talking about is Trey Calloway, previous guest of the show, friend of the show. So what is Trey hoping to get out of having you manage him?

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Man, that's a boy, that's a question for him, right? But if if if I could answer it for him, I hope that he's getting someone that wakes up before him, makes the calls he don't have to make, sell his product better than anybody that he's ever had in his life, whether it's his wife or his child, just truly believe in the next steps for him and then trying to connect him with the people that can make that possible.

Jay Franze 26:06

Alright, so we went through the day-to-day role as the tour manager. Can you tell us a day-to-day role for Trey as a manager?

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Sure. Well, for me, I think it's a little bit different, Jay, because I still am a very active tour manager and I'm doing both of those roles. So I have to find my time and and spend it wisely to make sure not one of them suffers. And I think that's another part of my career right now that I've haven't experienced, and I'm still learning day to day, which I'm fine with. But it's it's calling people with uncertainty, if that makes sense. With Craig, I'll call somebody with certainty. I know what we're doing. We're doing a show, we've got this, he's making this amount of money, it costs this much money to do it. With Trey, it's more or less a wish, a want, a gamble, if you will. Just trying to entice it's like being a car salesman, unfortunately. Right? I mean, you've you've made a product uh with a guy and you know what he can sell and you know how good he is, but then trying to sell it to somebody else who's never heard it or hadn't heard it for the first time or whatever it may be, and then in the same regard, you're trying to sell something to them that they already had their mindset on that Mazda Miata or whatever it is down here, and you're trying to be like, no, that car sucks, you need this one.

Jay Franze 27:26

Mazda's not a sponsor. If they would like to be, they sure can. I mean, if you look at any hate mail, Jerry at jfranzy.com.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I I'll tell you what, you if you have any hate mail, you can send it to my oh 2004 Hummer H3. I need a lot of parts for it. I think still living, but I'm driving it every day. So if there's a sponsorship for a car that don't make it anymore, I'm your guy. There you go.

Jay Franze 27:48

All right, so you're you're taking on this this role. It's definitely a more challenging role, especially with somebody who is not as established as Craig is. Sure. So on that note, though, when you took

Building A Team Around Trey

Jay Franze 28:00

on the role, did Craig have anything to say about it? Oh, he did. Absolutely. Um what was that conversation like?

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Okay, so Trey Trey's not the first that I've tried this with. There's been a uh a couple other guys, which I'm not gonna name. I don't want to name them, but great guys. I wish him the best. But with Trey in particular, I think it became more of a uh fruitful thing because I've got you know his Craig's producer involved, right? So Phil O'Donnell, he's one of my best friends in this industry and one of the most talented men I've ever met in my life. Uh written a lot of songs for, I mean, number one's for George Straight, Blake Shelton. I I don't even want to go down the rolls, but you get what I'm saying. A very, very established gentleman in our field. So I got Trey hooked up with him, and we really produced and did a great record. So I think it made it more fruitful then at Craig's eyes to this was a thing I'm trying to do. And Craig was all cool with it, but like I said, he didn't want it to interfere with anything uh what we do on our daily operations. And I that's been a challenge as well, but but here's the the thing about it, Jay, is like I got Craig involved. He's he's very uh cognizant of the situation, and he's he knows what talent is and he believes in Trey. So in return, me and Craig developed a management company, and now Trey is our first artist on said management company.

Jay Franze 29:27

Nice, I love that. And he's also Craig's next opening act, so it works out.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

There you go. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, probably not all the time, but uh a couple times it probably helped, right?

Tiffany Mason 29:40

So yeah, yeah. How do you what is your sounding board?

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Probably my best friend in this business is whether he'll he'll say it or not. And he probably will. I mean, he's he's he's a very high-profile manager at Red Light Management, a gentleman by the name of Gain Sturdivant. But the funny thing about it is, Tiffany, is like at the time, Craig's booking agent, this was CMA Fest. He brought who quote unquote was going to be Craig's manager to the bus and said, Jerry, I'd like to introduce you to Gain Sturd Event. And this was Jeff Phil at the time, Jay, the same guy that I had booking Trey. But so Jeff, he was at CA at the time. He was like, Game Start Event's new manager. Here he is, CMA Fest. We did the stage. I was like, oh great. Then I never heard anything about him. I never never talked to him again, nothing. It was it was years later. And Craig wanted another management company and it didn't work out as well. And then here comes gains. But since about 2013-14, he became Craig's manager and he and I just hit it off. I mean, he's just one of my best friends. I can if I have a shitty day at the end of the day, I'm I'm calling that guy.

SPEAKER_05 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Uh just just because he understands and knows and he can buy to me, and he can break it down to a business standpoint or a personal standpoint. And I just don't have a lot of people in my life that can do that. I mean, my wife, obviously. You know, she's she's uh been my rock. I don't want to be sentimental with with with everybody in your audience, but I mean, if there's there's not a woman like that in your life as a music man, there's no more music. I mean, it's it's just really not. I mean, you could be a single guy and do this, sure. I mean, it'd probably be a little bit more party back here than it is right now. But but having having a stable woman in my life for for the past you know three decades, it's enticed me, it's it's uh it's uh encouraged me and just kind of devoted me to to my trade to try to make it better for us. Yeah. Right? But if if she would have made it harder on me to do it, I wouldn't have been able to accomplish it. There's there's no way.

Tiffany Mason 31:51

Yeah, and I always think about that with people that are on the road, you really have to have a supportive house or yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

I mean, Jay could probably attest, it's not even just on the road, just this business in general. I mean, music is so finicky and the way it's changed. God, when I was learning this crap when when when this this gentleman was teaching me some of this stuff, it's completely well, I mean I'm using that as respect. Um it's it's it's it's completely different then than it is now, 100%.

Tiffany Mason 32:24

Well, thinking about the different uh growths that you've had, you know, your different promotions per se, how much time was between each one of them? So you started out with the monitor, monitor engineer. I I don't know all the technical terms. Sorry, right? Monitor engineer. Um and then how long before you, you know, kind of graduated to that next spot into that next spot?

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Sure. Well, so I'll I'll give you a little education first, Tiffany. So monitor engineer is somebody that deals directly with music that the band is hearing while they're performing. Okay. So you've been to a show, right? Obviously, you have been to multiple. So a monitor engineer is one of those guys that don't get credit for anything other than if something goes bad. If they had a good night, it's called good job. If they had a bad night, you could be flying home the next morning. That's the difference in a monitor guy. The front of house guy has a little bit more variables, has a little bit more stuff that is it's his favor not to be the guy that made it a bad night. Right? Okay. The the venue itself, the people, blah, blah, blah, you name it. There's so many variables I couldn't even explain it to you. But they just control what you hear.

Jay Franze 33:30

Also, the artist doesn't hear the front of house at all.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

That's not even thing. Like, if his manager don't hear it and tell him about it, that guy's got a job tomorrow. The artist hears what the monitor guy's doing in time, right there. Okay. Right. So, as far as my time with all of them, I guess 2004, 2008 was uh was monitors and and um stage managing and guitar taking. 2008 to 2011 was front of house and production manager, and 2012 until the present day, I've been the uh tour manager.

Tiffany Mason 34:04

Okay, so I'm thinking in my head about you know, you start a position and you start to get comfortable in it, and then you're kind of ready to graduate to the next thing. So it sounds like you kind of did that at the beginning of your career, you know, about every three, four years you were learning new skills and and moving on.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

Right.

Tiffany Mason 34:21

And it sounds like now you're maybe starting this new thing with Craig, and it sounds like maybe there's a new chapter starting kind of where yeah, where you're learning a new skill set again. It's like ready to up level.

The Real Goal Is Getting Home

Tiffany Mason 34:35

How do you feel about that? What does your wife think about that? Does that mean less time on the road? What does it mean for you?

SPEAKER_03 34:40

That's so I'm glad you brought that up. So, Tiffany, that that's the goal is less time on the road, obviously. Because of being somebody who's who's sorry guys, I'm changing Zen out. I know we're probably live, but I need a nicotine fix right here. Apologies, audience. Apologies. So, yeah, so it's that was the main goal, really, Tiffany, like completely from all of this. It wasn't even to take that next step to be that guy or be a manager or nothing. It was it was a natural progression. But the main course and and the main direction and narrative was to get me home with my wife and children. So if you're somebody that goes on the road and you have family, your objective is to find a way to get you back home to your family. Right? Whether it's the end of the tour or it's just longevity and and being done with it. I mean, the road can only go so far from a certain age point to where you just start getting jaded and just missing everything. And that traveling don't mean anything. Because when you travel the way that we do, and everybody's like, oh my God, you've seen the world, you've been here, you've been here. I have. I've seen a lot of stages and a lot of hotels. Right. Maybe a bar in between and an eatery at some side of the road in nowhere in Montana that has a great stakes, like, oh, we better remember this, let's pin it. But like, you really don't get to experience like what you would on vacation with your family, or you don't have that mindset because you're at work. So you don't really get to see the world in the perception of the way people think you do, but you get to miss everything.

Tiffany Mason 36:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Oh, yeah, I mean, you missed you miss it all. Yeah, and and you have to come home and justify that and and see your materialistic things and and see how good you know your family's doing. They got AC, they don't live in a trailer, we have a good house, blah, blah, blah. And you try to justify your time and your money, and that pendulum as you get older, buddy, the weight of it just do you feel like Craig is feeling the same way? 100%. Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's what he does for a living, just like myself. I I think that that's the most fruitful operation he has in a lot of the the uh the businesses that he owns. But uh, but but he'll tell that to your face. I'm not saying nothing he wouldn't say.

SPEAKER_05 37:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Of course he does. He has children, has grandchildren, you know, and his wife he's had for 40 years. It's yeah, all that weighs on any man, anybody, not just man, any man or woman or or or person or creature that that travels and they're away

Broken Compass And A Personal Loss

SPEAKER_03 37:15

from their loved ones, they feel it at some point.

Tiffany Mason 37:17

Now, the thing that you and Craig are starting, um, if you could remind me the name of the company that you guys are starting, and then who approached who on the partnership.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

Wow, so okay, so what we've landed on right now is broken compass management. Okay. Okay. Um, the reason why that is there ain't no way in hell we're getting you to where you need to go. So the the reason why that's even a thing, uh, me and Craig's always kind of wanted to take a next step or always continue to work together. And obviously, if when he scales down, Tiffany, from his day-to-day operations on tour, my role is going to be less because of that. But we want to find a way to us always to operate as a business partnership going forward. This is the next natural step, especially for me and and him. I mean, not really for him. I mean, a dude has I mean, he's ruled the world, he's done everything he needs to. God bless him and his family. He's he's done everything right, and he has everything looking forward to him in his retirement, and he's gonna be fine. But what I love about him is the respect and still the drive to help me do something like this. But the reason why this became a thing is because a lot of people don't know, maybe your audience. In 2016, Craig had a son that passed away.

SPEAKER_05 38:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

And it was one of the most intense and real experiences in a relationship with somebody that I've ever experienced. Whether it be a mom, a brother, a dad, a best friend. No, it's like to be there and witness what that family went through was very trying. I mean, good lord, when when I came home after everything was over, literally, I just fell on the floor in my children's bedrooms and just cried. Just just couldn't it couldn't even imagine what this family was going through. Long story short, so his son that passed away, he was he wrote a lot of stuff down and a lot of artwork, and he wrote uh drew compasses. And that was kind of his his thing. And Craig always wanted to do something like compass management. Well, for some reason, there was a company in Michigan, a real estate company, and we couldn't have compass management. Jerks. So me and Craig tried to do that, but then years later, which is now with Trey, we did it again, and we were just brainstorming and come up with broken compass. And the reason why we kind of wanted that to be a thing was because broken compass is kind of creating a compass and helping new artists find their way. So broken compass management is just us kind of helping you manage that brokenness and put you in the right path for success.

Tiffany Mason 40:04

I was thinking the line to success is usually not straight. It's usually this broken, squiggly line that you know, so maybe your compass is broken, you don't get that straight path, but you know, you get the follow-up. It sounds like you've been betting on yourself this entire time, and it sounds like the money is great, but that's not the real motivation. So I wish you guys nothing but luck. I mean, how amazing. Yes, yes, nothing cost your success. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

No, it's just nothing. It's never been about the money. Money's never been a thing for me because I I never came from money. I've always been, you know, and grew up in trailers and broke. I mean, hell, it it I paid uh almost $30,000 to learn from that man right there. What a mistake that was. And well, I mean, long now that I look back at it, Jay, I don't know. I think it was it was it was the best money I've ever spent because it it it you know catapulted me into a industry that I had really no business being in. I mean, it was one that I I flirted with because I could sing back in the day and did some demos and helped a buddy out with karaoke and blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to wanted to be a singer. But as soon as I saw my direction and kind of where my place was in this industry, man, I

School Stories And Early Hustle

SPEAKER_03 41:25

just I buckled up and went head first. What do you remember most from the school? Man, I gotta tell you, I'm glad you asked me that. I was hoping that we'd come to this portion of the event this evening. Uh, do you remember my good buddy? And I know you do, when I say his name, you're gonna know exactly who I'm talking about. I already know. Rob Thacker. This is a gentleman that I went to school with, Tiffany, and he was still one of my best friends to this day. I mean, good lord, me and this guy had some times back then. So Jay teached the class, he was, he was, you know, he's all digital and all knowing and all just this is what I'm gonna teach you young bucks today, and it was always Pro Tools and stuff like that. But I think Jay, if I'm not mistaken, we were doing a Sound of Picture, and you may not remember this, man. This was so long ago. But Sound to Picture was a Terminator, uh, Terminator 2, to be exact, is what the film was. And he was teaching us automation and Pro Tools and all these different things, and doing it through Sound of Picture. Well, me and Rob, our stupid asses, we uh we literally had a 57, SM57, plugged right into the digital I.O. And just we were sitting there just saying what was happening on screen when the Rob robots were walking, we were like, and then and then Jay, if you don't know, you asked, Oh, we are panning this left to right right now. We were recording all this crap, and that's what we turned in. I can't believe this man passed us. That is literally what we turned in as a project. I don't know if he remembers that, but is that that is exactly what we did.

Jay Franze 43:04

I very vaguely remember that. However, there are plenty of other moments of the two of you that I remember just fine.

Tiffany Mason 43:14

So how much did that piss you off, Jay is there, teacher?

SPEAKER_03 43:19

No, I bet it I made it he probably laughed his ass off.

Jay Franze 43:24

I mean, so much Tiffany, we had a lot It's not what you're recording, it's knowing how to record something. So if you can if you can make that work, you make it work.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

We had a we had a DAB, it's a digital console, right? So it was like our first studio type environment that we had, other than the AAB, which is an analog console. But anyway, so in this said console, we had to record something. So Rob Thacker brought in a rolling electronic drum kit, and we proceeded to go down to the mic closet and get the most expensive mics we could possibly get. And overhead, this freaking electronic drum kit with all this stuff. Played it. And all they heard was, you know, it's just hidden rubber. It just hidden rubber. I was like, we're never going to pass this course, man. I just spent 30 grand on this shit. Like, my wife is going to kill me. But you took it very seriously. So we passed, and here I am now.

Jay Franze 44:20

Dude, I will tell you when I decided to leave the school, probably a little too much information, but when I decided to leave the school was when federal funding got involved, and we had to make sure that a certain number of students, a certain percentage, graduated in order to continue to receive federal funding. Sure. So when you get involved in that, then you're starting to get involved in, well, now you're just putting crap out into the industry.

Tiffany Mason 44:50

And that is how Jerry passed.

Jay Franze 44:51

That's how Jerry passed.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

There you go. There we go. So if I fail, it's Jay's fault, Tiffany.

unknown 44:58

No.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

I've I've already succeeded. I mean, money well spent, right? I mean, I I've here's the thing: full circle, there's no way that I could have fathomed that I would be doing this tonight. You know, with everything I went through in between, from the last time I saw this guy right here until the night I'm seeing him right now. It's pretty special. It's pretty special. I gotta be honest.

Jay Franze 45:24

If you remember back to week one of that school, do you think you're ever gonna edit analog tape or align a tape machine?

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Yeah, man, I I thought that was the industry standard. That's week one, you're sitting there going, oh, I've got to remember all of this.

Jay Franze 45:39

Week two, you're into digital.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

You never see analog again. Yeah, and in week eight, I was a tour manager, so I didn't know what was going on, right? So, yeah, I mean, unbelievable, really. This industry is just so it's it's it's it's crazy. It's a great ride, but it is unbelievably crazy. I just I feel for people now that that get into it because of

Labels, Independence, And AI Concerns

SPEAKER_03 46:05

the nuance of everything, and God bless these kids trying to do this, man. I mean, holy cow. I'm not gonna speak anything bad about it because I want anybody to be successful in this business, but man, there's a lot of rich people that are not talented, and there's a lot of talented people that's not rich.

SPEAKER_05 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Well, that's the main industry forever, but yeah, forever.

Jay Franze 46:27

It's a different approach the way people are doing things these days. The people growing up don't seem to want to be engineers. I mean, no, they don't. That was something that was a desired field back in the days to be the producer and the engineer. Now the only time you want to be a producer and engineer is if you're producing yourself as an artist. Sure. So I moved from the one college to another. I went to the International Academy of Design and Technology after SAE. And all of the students were there to produce themselves. There was nobody there to go work in a recording studio.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

So they were very progressive at that time, I guess, right?

Tiffany Mason 47:10

I think it was such a tragedy. Like I guess just from me outside of the industry thinking like you had your hands on that project that ended up on the radio that millions and millions of people listened to, like, oh my gosh, it's my favorite song. They've made memories to that music. Who knows if you've just cherished that one song forever? Sure. And like when we were in in um in Nashville, and I can't remember what song came on, and Jay was like, Oh yeah, I worked on that song. I don't think that you realize, like, I just felt like I just wanted to have a moment just to think about that. Like, that is something that everybody listened to. I think that is like I I don't know, like what an honor, what a privilege to be smart enough to know how to do that. Like, I seriously feel like I'm getting choked up.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Right? Right.

Tiffany Mason 48:01

Like just to just to be a part of that song that somebody cherishes and loves, and that artist poured their heart and soul into it, and I don't know. I just I think that that's a huge miss if someone does want to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Well, I'm still the same way, Tiffany. That's probably why I'm chasing what I'm chasing, because I felt it with Craig and I felt it for a long time. And he was one of the guys in in that era that did it the old school way until today's age and been able to sustain a lot of that stuff. I mean, as a guy doing it for 25 years, there's not a lot of acts. I mean, there's not a lot of acts right now that came out five years ago that's gonna be here in the next 20. It's just not because that's just not the way the industry's built, right? I mean, it takes it takes a lot to do that. And that's no disrespect to none of them, but that's just the nature of the beast. I mean, that's for all of us, from AI to all the technology and everything we got going on. I mean, hell, AI gets good enough. These artists are not even gonna need a manager, they just plug in what they want and a prompt and freaking they got everything they need. Yeah, you'll start calling the hotel and booking the rooms. Well, no, that that's different too. I guess they'll be a tour manager. I mean, some people do have to play the show, right? I mean, the show does have to be played. Yeah. So until they get robots to do that shit, I guess we still got a little bit of a gig. But just just I get what you're saying, but like with these younger acts and you get so much involved and you record something so good, and then you you present it to these people that back in the day would help you out in their artist development situations and AR and all that stuff. And now, if you don't give them a finely tuned product to sell, they don't want to touch it. And okay, that's fine. If that's what we're doing, that's great. But at that standpoint, they know that they're gonna usher themselves out of the industry, right? Because if if you get a bunch of these independents that are like the big Ella Langley's and and and Riley Greens and stuff of that nature, they're gonna stop taking the phone calls from the record labels because they're gonna see how profitable it is for them just to keep it all in-house themselves and hire their own people. Why should I go give 50% to a record label when I can pay 20% and buy me a promotion staff to go put this on radio? And it's already starting to happen. And I'm not a jaded guy. I mean, I I want to trade to be on a record label tomorrow. I think it's only gonna help our cause and our drive. But in in in a couple years, I don't know if that's gonna be even a thing that we even think about. He doesn't even need it now. A record label right now, Dre, in my opinion, is a is kerosene. Uh but it's really, really expensive kerosene. Exactly. It it keeps the fire burning, but how much money do you have to pay for it? Right. Right? I mean that

Unsung Heroes Behind The Curtain

SPEAKER_03 50:40

that's just the way I kind of consider it.

Jay Franze 50:42

Well, he is a great guy, and that kind of leads us right into this next segment here. We typically have this thing here we call unsung heroes, where we give you a moment to shine the light on somebody who's worked behind the scenes or somebody who may have supported you along the way. Is there anybody who would like to thank? Wow.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Um man, I've got a lot of people I can thank. That's damn Jay. Yeah, we only get six more hours, so you know. Okay, all right, we're good then. All right, well, so I'll I'll I mean I gotta start Hung Sung here. I gotta start with my wife. I mean, I'm sorry. I just I just can't. I mean, she's I I know that's a cliche thing to say. No, it it can be cliche, but I mean the woman has just put up with so much of my just being on the road and changing careers and just wanting to do things. And it's gotta start with her and my children. I mean, my my daughter is pretty much my mimic of of the business sense, and my son is a mimic of my creative standpoint. She's going to school at uh Western Kentucky University for uh social media marketing and management. And she's probably gonna be working with me and hopes to work with the Titans one day. She's big in sports and music. My son, God bless his soul, he just followed right down the footsteps and he's he's playing guitar, he's playing bass, he's playing drums, he's wanting to go SAE and follow my footsteps. He just turned 18. And just trying to put him on the right path to make the right decisions, like I did. But if there's one guy on my day-to-day right now, if you want to call an Unsung Hero, it's my stage manager, Adam Munguillen. This guy is a former trooper from the great state of Kentucky. He was an officer for about 22 years, but he's also a drummer as well, and he has his own company that makes mallets. But this guy, Jay, when he comes to work, he's my stage manager, my guitar tech. He sets the tone for the business. He's the first guy up to be bubbly and just greet everybody, whether it's a promoter or a stage hand or a caterer or whatever it is, and he just kind of sets the tone for everybody. And the dude is like that from load in to load out and beyond. That's awesome. Yeah, he's one of those guys who just uh on your crew, just kind of it makes you check yourself by looking over and watching him, and you're like, you know what? I need to match that energy and do that job the same way today.

Final Thanks And Sign-Off

Jay Franze 53:11

I'm sure there are 500 more things that we have on our list that we could talk to you about, so you'll have to come back. I would love to. So we'd love to have you back. But in the meantime, we have done it, we've reached the top of the hour, which does mean we have reached the end of the show. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend and Miss Tiffany if you have not.

Tiffany Mason 53:29

Tell two.

Jay Franze 53:30

Tell two. You can reach out to both of us. You can reach out to all three of us over at jfrenzy.com. We will keep this or any other conversation going for that matter. Jerry, my friend, it has been an absolute blast having you here and catching up. We would like to leave the final words to you.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

Oh, well, I mean, buddy, what what can I say where my journey started just a little bit before you, and during that time period that you were teaching me things that you probably wouldn't even think that would have affected me beyond, and having me create a career that uh helped myself and my family for now and until who who knows? I mean, my my children's going in the same footsteps as me. I pass it on to another generation. And uh I just thank you. I thank you for the opportunity to come on here tonight with you and Tiffany. I I appreciate you what what you've done for me in the past, even though you thought it was just another day of you teaching at school. But those little bits probably uh stuck with me a little bit to uh make me the person I am today and help me advance in my career. So I appreciate that. Thank you for saying it.

Jay Franze 54:40

All right, folks. On that note, have a good night.