John Mason, Entertainment Attorney / Author (Crazy Lucky)

What really powers a legendary music career: luck or preparation? We sit down with an entertainment attorney whose five-decade journey runs from backstage nerves with a young Olivia Newton-John to helicopter clauses for Kenny Rogers, quiet rebuilding with Reba after tragedy, and complicated exits that still end in respect. Along the way he shows how trust-first relationships turn into durable deals, why the best counsel plans five to ten years ahead, and how to spot the moment when a flashy offer serves commissions over careers.

The stories move fast and cut deep. You’ll hear about staging leverage to win real contract value, navigating the delicate artist–manager–lawyer triangle, and drawing bright lines when a manager’s incentives collide with an artist’s future. We break down how legacy contracts still drag around breakage and packaging deductions, then collide with today’s internet uploads, streaming statements, and AI clones. He shares practical steps for protecting catalogs, from constant monitoring to decisive takedowns, and explains the gray zone no one foresaw: when an AI “new” master touches an old deal.

What stands out most is the humanity: 50 years of brother-sister rapport with Olivia, chameleon genius and honest breakups around Quincy Jones, and the steady hands who kept doors open—Conway Twitty, Jimmy Bowen, and others who believed before the ink dried. If you care about how artists actually build a life in music—contracts that age well, teams that align incentives, and careers that sustain both stage and family—this conversation is a field guide wrapped in unforgettable moments.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find it. Got a question for a future episode or a story of your own? Send it our way at jfranzy.com and join the conversation.

Episode Links

• John Mason: https://www.johnmasonlaw.com/
• Crazy Lucky: https://www.johnmasonlaw.com/crazy-lucky-the-book
• Bob Bullock: https://jayfranze.com/episode28/

Transcript

Jay Franze 0:48

And we are coming at you live. I am Jay Franzi, and uh with me tonight, the Sandy to my Danny, my beautiful co-host, Miss Tiffany Mason.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Well, I'll take that compliment. There you go.

Luck Versus Preparation

Jay Franze 1:01

If you are new to this show, this is your source for the latest news, reviews, and interviews. And if you would like to join in, comment, or fire off any questions, please head over to jfranzie.com. All right, my friend. Tonight we have a very special guest with us. I said it once, I will say it again, and we have a very special guest. We have an entertainment attorney and an author. A two-in-one folks. Hailing from the great state of Tennessee, we have John Mason. John, sir, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Jay. And hi, Tiffany.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Hello.

Jay Franze 1:31

Well, let's just jump right in. With the name of your book being Crazy Lucky, and your career being as successful as it is, can you tell us how much of your career has been based on luck versus preparation?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I'd have to say, Jay and Tiffany, about 50-50. You know, in the beginning of the book, I talk about my family background and my grandfather being an indentured seaman from Canada, my dad's a butcher. And having been born when I was in uh 1946 in Los Angeles was pretty lucky. I had nothing to do with that. Wanting to get away from the family business of being a butcher was an intent. But figuring out how I wanted to do this and what I wanted to do did take the other half or maybe 80% getting ready, going to college, going to law school, getting out, being lucky to get a job, to have met Credence Clearwater Revival when I was up at UC Berkeley. They lived in Oakland and then having Olivia Newton, John, and Kat Stevens walk in the office. A lot of that's lucky, but if I didn't have the law degree and I didn't have the experience in music, maybe that wouldn't have happened. So I'm gonna stick with my 50-50. We're gonna do roulette tonight.

Meeting Olivia Newton-John

Jay Franze 2:45

I like it. Let's go with red. All right. So 50-50 preparation versus luck. And you just dropped a couple names there that were just walking through the door. Let's start with my heart's favorite. Let's talk about Olivia Newton-John. Can you tell us how that came about? My favorite also.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Whenever I talk about Olivia, I have to say ahead of time I get I get emotional. We we worked together and were as close as brother or sister for 50 years, and it meant a lot to me. Meeting Olivia back in 1973 was it was such a treat because we we all of us had the ideal person, artist, talented, kind, generous, beautiful, great singer. And I had had I'd had some good success in the first couple of years of my career. And then a friend called me and said that Olivia Newton-John uh had moved to Los Angeles and needed an attorney, and would I be interested? Well, yeah, I was interested. But I still have a policy to this day that I need to meet artists before I can work with them. It has to be a mutual bond between us. So we established that I would go to New York and meet Olivia backstage at the Metropolitan Opera. And here I am, 25-year-old LA guy, and probably been to New York once in my life, but legendary. Olivia backstage uh at the Metropolitan Opera. And we we had a great time just being there. Olivia had been prepped that I was coming, but she was so nervous before the show. When I got to the dressing room, she actually was retching into the trash can. So I said, okay, Olivia, I'll see you after the show. And um she she she just did a great, great, great show, and we agreed to meet at her home in Malibu, where I arrived two weeks later to her waiting out by the pool and her bikini with an iced tea. So that's a great story. It's a great, great time. We we um did a lot.

Jay Franze 4:54

You mentioned being 25 years old when you were sent out to meet with Olivia. That's extremely young. How old was she compared to you at that time?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Olivia Olivia was four years younger than me. So right now, when I'm 80 this year, I mean I'm still 79, Olivia would have been 76, 75. So she was 20, I think when we met, I was 25 and she was 22. Wow.

Jay Franze 5:21

All right. So that dynamic, I mean, you guys are both extremely young early in your careers. Yeah. Did that play into the your relationship at all?

SPEAKER_02 5:30

I I don't think so. In one sense, neither one of us really knew what we were doing. We we trusted and believed in each other, and I had had some good experience from the work that I had done. But in that time, I was far more in movies than in television. But I as a as a lawyer, but as a professional, I had started in music and I knew a lot about music, but I will never forget meeting Olivia those early times and having a bond that lasted our whole lives together. And and that I think had a lot more to do with our chemistry than our ages.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Now, did she ever end up introducing new clients to you?

Building Trust With Young Artists

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Actually, I met a lot of people through Olivia. For example, Karen Carpenter, who wasn't a client of mine, and John Denver, who was a met a lot of people, but Olivia was a private non-business person, and she introduced me to a lot of talent at events, but never as this is my lawyer, you should hire him.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

You said you had a brother-sister bond. What is the funniest thing that you can remember the two of you doing together, like a fond memory?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Going to parties at her house was a lot of fun. The most fun day, I'm sure, for both of us was the shoot of you're the one that I want at the high school, where she and John were in that wheel, and she came out with a tight black leather outfit and smoking a cigarette, and it it was pretty funny. Funny to her, funny to us. She knew a lot more than the rest of us that were there, including the cast. I I would say all the way up till about five years ago, she she was uh made a what was it called, a dame of the Australian country. And she had a party at her house, and the ambassador from Australia came and it was just fun. She she was fun, funny. She gave a funny speech, and then had a lunch for 16 of us telling jokes, cracking us up. And by that time, she knew more than most of us that her time was limited. So always fun with Olivia. For the tragedies that happened to her, I can't name times that were sadder than just knowing she wasn't well. Yeah, that's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

You said that when you work with people, you have to meet with them first. So, what is something that they say or do that you're like, oh, we're working together? What is a green flag for you?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

That's the chemistry. I it would be easy for for me to say, for a for a lawyer to say, oh my gosh, I'm gonna represent Frank Sinatra or big name. I've never felt that. I've felt we're in the business, my clients and I, uh of entertaining people and being paid for it. So I'm on the getting paid for it side and they're on the entertaining side. But as you know from reading the book, all the stories of me with Quincy Jones or Donna Summer or Brian Wilson or Michael Jackson are very personal. So that's been my wouldn't just say my calling card. That that's been my mission in my career to have that special one-on-one relationship with the artist.

Jay Franze 8:57

We always talk about luck and you talk about all these artist you've had the opportunity to work with. Has an unlucky moment ever helped advance your career?

SPEAKER_02 9:07

That is a crazy question, Jay.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Stumped him.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah, because uh because my inclination is to say no of things that weren't comfortable, that I that I've talked about and that I feel being fired by Quincy Jones wasn't great, but it certainly didn't help my career. Having worked with Quincy and been introduced by Quincy to so including Michael Jackson, great artists, uh, was a big help in my career. And so being fired by Quincy wasn't a detriment. It was okay. It wasn't fun, I can say that. It was a very emotional experience, but we stayed friends until he passed away last year.

Jay Franze 9:50

Why'd that relationship, the working relationship, come to an end?

Personal Bonds And Industry Access

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Well, I'm gonna give you an anecdote. Uh a guy who whose father was Billy Eckstein, who was also my client and very, very close with Quincy. Ed Eckstein was a brilliant young talent. He still is. He ran record companies, but the day after Quincy and I parted ways, uh, Ed said to me, Don't don't take it personally, John. Quincy's a chameleon. He actually Q is a chameleon. He changed people, moods, music. Um, and Quincy has a lot of kids from different mothers, people that he really loved. He loved he loved his wives and loved his kids, but he he was a chameleon.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

He was a man of variety.

Jay Franze 10:41

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Keep things fresh.

Jay Franze 10:44

That's what I try to tell my wife. Keep things fresh, babe.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Well, speaking of just, you know, things changing, and what is the wildest contract clause that you've ever seen?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

A client asked me to get in the contract. Uh, I wouldn't even repeat what it was, but it was basically you can never screw Tiffany Mason. That's put in the contract. I I think the most unusual one was the when I got a helicopter for Kenny Rogers as part of his record deal. And that never had that happen before or or since. We did a mon pa kettle routine on Kenny and Marianne Rogers ranch where we um got RCA records to rent a helicopter with the glass, plexiglass in the front. And we had preset that Kenny and Marianne would be standing out on this big pasture with a big pond waving with the overalls. And uh it was crazy. But we ended up getting a helicopter as part of the deal because they could see how useful it was for Kenny to fly to his ranch.

Jay Franze 11:53

That's insane. So, how long did you work with Kenny?

Quincy Jones: Breaks And Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Long time. I'd say I started with Kenny right after he left the first edition, it was Kenny Rogers' first edition, so there was Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town. Went on through all the coward of the county and the gambler and lady and feels like forever, but it wasn't forever, it was just a beautiful long run that started with that that funny situation of not wanting to be in folk music and be in a band and creating the character that Kenny began. It's the same we did with the RCA meeting I was telling you about. Kenny was um a great actor, and and we played a lot of parts together.

Jay Franze 12:43

Quick quick tangents. I mean, back in that day, a gentleman named Bob Bullock was Kenny Rogers' engineer. Did you happen to have a chance to meet Bob?

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Met him only in the studio. Uh I went to a number of Kenny's sessions. Larry Butler was producing out in LA before Lionel Ritchie. And uh I met Bob probably three or four times in the studio, but you know how that goes. You're kind of in there feeling like you're interrupting the flow of what the music is. So it was more, it was just hello, I'm here. But Kenny, Kenny and I had meetings at recording sessions and concerts constantly. When he wasn't working, he would have rather and was always interested in his pastimes, buying real estate, driving his cars. So most of our meetings were at shows or in in studios. What kind of cars did he like? Porsche's Porsche. I bought I bought one from him. You did? Um, yeah, I did. I told him, Kenny, if you ever sell that car, I I'd love to buy it. He actually called me one day and said, John, if you're serious, I'm selling that car. Do you still have it?

Jay Franze 13:51

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I don't. Oh, what happened? Hey, I'm a car guy, man. I'm from LA. Cars come and go.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Variety. John's a man of variety as well.

Jay Franze 14:04

Cars come and go, but Kenny's doesn't come and go.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

You know what? We had these giant storms in Nashville. I drive a Land Rover defender. That's my idea of what I need to be driving now.

Jay Franze 14:21

That's that's my wife's car of choice.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Oh, is it great? Yeah. The best.

Jay Franze 14:27

All right. So was there ever a moment in your career like did an artist or a project come your way that you didn't want to take and then ended up taking and having it be successful?

Wild Contract Clauses And Kenny’s Helicopter

SPEAKER_02 14:41

I'm laughing because I was hoping the end of that would be an artist that I wanted to take that came and ended up, I hated them. Uh either way.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Okay, you can answer that question.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Give us one of each.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

We're willing to follow you, John.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

We had a lot of clients in the 70s and 80s and 90s that I would call one hit wonders, that I was so proud of them and their music and what they did. Uh I felt I felt blessed to be their lawyer. I haven't talked about those because the book is really about people with whom I had a what I'll call an intimate. As in, we talked three, four times a week, calling about personal things both ways. Of people that changed my life that way. It's just, yes, everybody. We've talked about Olivia for sure. Uh in my 55-year career, my 50 years with Olivia is the greatest of the greatest. But Donna Summer came to me when she came back from Germany, and I I'm stunned to even think about and talk about what all happened from Love to Love You Baby to on the radio.

Jay Franze 15:48

Which is one of my favorite songs.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yes, it is mine. Yeah, it's certainly mine. But while we're talking about country music, you two, uh, Reba, right? 30 Years Together, was somebody that the story in the book is real. Uh Mattelived and I met Reba, I'm sorry, when she was um just getting set up with Narval. She'd just gotten divorced from Charlie Battles, and we had that magic meeting that I was talking about, Narval and Reba and I, Narval was her steel guitar player, and he was becoming her manager, and then we're getting engaged. And within um, I don't know, I think before I walked out of the, that was in the studio also. Before I walked out, they said, You're we we can't wait to work with you. We wanted to do everything to do everything. And then two weeks later, Narval had to call me and say that the president of the label said we have to hire his lawyer, and they switched to that lawyer. And that was really sad. I really, really felt comfortable with them. But but just one year later, the plane crashed with the crew and the band on it. And I called Reba and I called Narval separately and just said, Oh my gosh, this is so devastating. I'm so sad. Is there anything I can do? And um both of them called me the next day and said, you know what? Our lawyer didn't call us, we want you back. And so that started the 30 years that we we worked together. And if you're wondering on the end of that, I mean I have to say, I went through the divorce of Narval and Reba and all that happened, and ended up that Reba wanted an all-female uh entourage, and she found it and she is it, and I'm I'm still mesmerized that she runs everything and does it better than anybody. Just Reba and Dolly Parton are on that level the business talent, thinking of things to do, making people happy, and being real and genuine in the process.

Studio Days And Car Stories

Jay Franze 17:49

Again, you mentioned Reba, you mentioned Dolly. Those are two of our favorites on the show. We talk about them a lot as being the pinnacle of what country musicians should be. Right. You mentioned having that relationship with Olivia at the start. Is that the same type of relationship you had with Reba and Dolly?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Well, not I will tell you why in a in a personal context. Reba in the 30 years I worked with her, was married to or managed and completely in the orbit of Narval. So in Reba's life, even though I saw her, we we were in the same suite of offices all the time. My dealings were primarily with Narval. And Reba would come every time we were finishing a deal. She'd come without Narval to ask me about the deal. So the personal side of it was a little different. In Olivia's our 50 years, Olivia was married twice, had that crazy fiance guy that fell off a boat and all of that. Our relationship, when I said brother, sister, me and me and Olivia was direct. There wasn't a manager connection in there, even though there were a few managers, not mentioning names, but while we're talking about that, let me ask you a question about that.

Jay Franze 19:07

What are the relationships with the managers that you have? There's there's gotta be an odd dynamic between a manager and an attorney throughout that relationship.

Reba, Loss, And A 30-Year Run

SPEAKER_02 19:16

It's really difficult. Uh I would prefer, and I and I've made a a lifetime commitment to be directly involved with the artist. The manager is in effect the the captain of the ship, if you would, and kind of running the day-to-day. But the artist is is the ship. The artist is the whole business. If I can speak directly with the artist, and even as with with Reba, and I was close with Reba, Reba and Narval, it's so much easier for me to do my job because I know what the artist wants, I know what the artist needs, I know how this. I I call it guiding people through a scary forest in the dark of night, because that's what I do best is guide people through the business, the career from records, movies, TV. Now we're talking about internet streaming and all of that. If I if I were to put it in words, I think the managers in general, and I and I have clients with and without managers, are far more interested in commissions and short-term thinking, where my thinking is far more on the five, 10-year plan. Even with Cheap Prick, which is a client, they're they're in their 50th year right now. Still amazing. All I want to talk about is what we're doing over the next five years, not what we did, not how can we have one more concert that that they make a lot of money? And that's that's a difficult place for lawyers and managers to be. And I think managers are are are far more afraid of being fired because if things go wrong, they get the blame. And lawyers generally, we don't get the blame.

Jay Franze 21:04

Well, attorneys often cross that path and actually manage artists. Have you ever been tempted to do that?

SPEAKER_02 21:11

I did have to act as Olivia's manager for a year because the old manager didn't work and we couldn't find somebody to do it. I hated that job. As much as I love Olivia, I don't like to be on call and I don't like that responsibility. And as I said, if if anything goes wrong, it's the manager's fault. It's never the artist's fault. Certainly not my fault. So, no, I've never ever wanted to be a manager for anybody.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

John, you said that you have a lot of really good relationships with the artists that you've worked with, and some of them have had managers. Do you find that they come to you and they say, like, is my manager doing the right thing? Or has there been a situation where you see a manager not doing the right thing and you kind of have to maybe either have a delicate conversation or point the artist, you know, like, did you check this? What have those situations been like?

Artist Relationships Versus Managers

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Those are really, really hard because it seems inevitable that one of us is going to get fired if I do that. And I have done that a number of times, including with the ex Olivia. manager some of which I talk about in the book but I have a situation right now with a with a major artist where I I just thought the manager did something unethical we put it that way and I and I pointed it out to the client and it's happening as we speak so we'll see how it turns out I don't expect to get fired but I'm okay I've been fired before right right can you share a a story without sharing the names can you share a story of an example well it's been it's been more and I and I'm generalizing but this is a lot that the manager got the artist into a deal where the manager's talking to I call everybody who the record companies the production companies that they're all exploiters of talent. So we have talent which is my business that's all I've done my whole career is represent talent and they're people who make their money from exploiting talent. So if a manager or an agent is trying to put together a deal with an exploiter of talent that I feel is about the commission or is not in the artist's best interest and this happened recently with a with a tour merchandise agreement I will say so. But I have an obligation to my clients I'm their lawyer in it that nothing will dissuade me from being honest about what I think is best and being honest when I think that what's being done is wrong. And you know it sorts itself out. I think I've won far more than I've lost.

Jay Franze 23:54

One more thing just if we take a quick step back you mentioned you like to look five years out to what the artists are doing like cheap trick. You want to look at what can be done five years from now. Yeah is there ever a point where you pause that way of thinking to double down on something that's going on right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

And I got to give you another example because we're on we're we're talking about country music Sawyer Brown, Mark Miller, my client for 40 years, we're in that same boat because Mark is celebrated Sawyer Brown 40th year new album I speak to Mark at least four or five times a week it's all about where we're going what's happening in in two years and four years and five years and I'm gonna contradict what I said to you Tiffany which is I don't do any new artists. Mark and I have been working on uh an artist 19 year old female artist who I think is on a par with everybody we've talked about as great as there's ever been and what we've built around her is an eight year plan literally that's just the way I like to think about it. And you know now I think gee uh will I be here at the end of that plan and I'm planning on it and I'm I'm on it every day that way and if you went back back in time like with with Frankie Valley for seasons Jersey Boys that was thinking about not just hits from the 60s that was sure how do we perpetuate this and here's Frankie doing 30 shows live this year at 92 cheapers.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

That's yeah well that brings up a question that that I had is that your career has spanned over multiple decades. What do you think are some of the more monumental or bigger changes in the contracts what are the things that have really tripped up some of the contracts and how have you pivoted or adjusted to those things well first exploiters of talent are always looking for a new way to take advantage of artists.

Ethical Lines And Manager Conflicts

SPEAKER_02 25:55

So in the evolution of the music business the television business the film business artists were generally treated as employees and and they were paid as employees and the and the product was owned by the exploiter that has changed and when I see contracts that go back the rascals I'll give me just one more example go back to 1965 contract over here you know there's the 10% breakage because at that point records could break and there's a packaging deduction when we don't even have packaging anymore. So evolving in the technical side of the business would see contracts the 60s for example they didn't contemplate eight tracks or CDs or compact discs let alone the internet and streaming so in contemporary agreements I'm able to fix a lot of that but I have to go back and fix the the 60s stuff too because it's just there and we didn't have I had a situation today it happened to be the four seasons Bob Gaudio where he found an artist putting up music on Spotify and Apple under the name the Four Seasons that's AI stuff and it's not even four season songs but he claims the artist who's in Kosovo calls himself a crazy something really Benzor radio people said well is it easier to to track these things it's really hard to track it down because people can put anything up on the internet and I was trying to explain that to my client today it's not that Spotify or Apple decides to put up Tiffany Mason you have you do it. Right they can't know until we tell them which I did today that that's not the four seasons that's not even the song that they use the name of yeah so it'll take me a few days frustrating to my clients but it it won't be there anymore. And that's not in contracts you know and what I what I'm seeing today in AI literally today is if we have hit songs that are in a catalog whether we own the own it or not if we if we create an AI version of the song or the master even though it's the original artist is it covered by the old contract is it a new master or is it a copy of the original we're fighting through that stuff right now.

Jay Franze 28:28

Yeah when you're working with these artists and you're talking about this such a long time period in these times where you have to look ahead whether it be five eight years is there a way that you have to to frame things the difference between patience and procrastination yes and and I have the the the background and the resume to show artists how it works.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

So if you thought through the 50 years that Olivia and I were work together from where we were to where we got I I say to artists that is how your career should go there's plenty of artists who burn out and don't want to do it anymore but if you're a pro, and I'm now going to go back to Mark Miller because we all love Sawyer Brown, 40 years out there's still a plan still Sawyer Brown there's still new records and I I had breakfast with his his daughter last week we were talking about something she said the thing that's great about her dad is that nobody recognizes him. So 40 years in his career he can go you know have dinner in a restaurant here in Nashville and we're in a baseball cap just like you Jay and nobody knows who he is and that's that's great because he loves being Sawyer Brown but he also loves having a family and and a real life a lot of people opt out because you it's really hard to have both.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah.

Long-Term Planning For Legacy Acts

SPEAKER_02 29:56

When you're um when you're talking about luck is there ever a time where luck isn't good depends on how how how you ask that I mean luck isn't good when you when you're banned and crew crashes and luck isn't good when a guy falls out of the rigging and and dies and when you're when you're on a bus in a snowstorm and an 18 wheeler plows into the back bad luck in the in the business side well bad luck in the business side to me is doing business with with crooked exploiters of talent or fraudulent exploiters of talent and if you pay attention and you have a good guy that isn't going to happen. The one exploiter of talent who I criticize the most probably in the book is Neil Bogart with Donna Summer. I mean we we had knockdown drag outs Neil Bogart and I and I didn't have respect for his uh for for his approach to Donna and the business so I I don't know that's not so much bad luck as just being prepared always for what might go wrong and that's really one of the things you learn in law school if you learn anything in law school it's that we should be prepared for the worst of circumstances and not always just the best.

Jay Franze 31:16

Which makes sense can you go back to that relationship and tell me what it was that first sign where you thought this isn't going to be a positive relationship well in in in that in that situation I'm talking about Donna Summer and by the way her dad was a butcher also so we we hit it off from the very beginning dead dad was a butcher in Boston Donna Donna was a warm wonderful person and she was one of the biggest artists in the world at that time and if not the biggest and her deal wasn't good if you if you think back Donna wasn't discovered in America she got in the play hair in Germany and uh signed with a German company so I went to see Neil Bogart who was the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

distributor of the German records for Donna and walked into his office and on Donna's behalf and he was just arrogant putting Donna down she's not that great she wouldn't be anything without me um not going to do that I've been more specific with you Tiffany and Jay than anybody in terms of these stories and it's not I I'm not afraid of telling the truth.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah I do love that like it just seems like you're just such a genuinely good guy. And so you know I think that you're kind of explaining a little bit of like karma like who you surround yourself is kind of what comes back to you and what you put out is what comes back to you as well. I guess I have two questions for you. The first one is crazy lucky are you talking about your crazy lucky or your clients were crazy lucky?

How Contracts Evolved To Streaming And AI

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Both particularly both okay I've had a I've had a great career which I think Jay had asked me earlier it's a lot of luck but obviously I worked hard to get there and I've dedicated my life to it but but artists there are so many talented artists in this in this country and in the world I'm talking about writers and and singers right and we're talking about focusing on music there are a thousand of the most talented musicians and singers in the world in Nashville Tennessee that doesn't really move the needle as much as having that and being in the right place at the right time which is the luck part and the part that I stress about myself to be able to meet and represent Olivia and Reba and Mark Miller or Randy Travis and Travis this is just always funny to me in in my country music chops all of it came from two people Conway Tweedy who introduced me to Randy Travis and and many others and Jimmy Bowen who introduced me to Reba and many others and how lucky is it that I knew I mean knew work with Jimmy Bowen and Conway Tweedy and you'd asked me I think it was Jay about Olivia referring clients Conway Twitty sent everybody he's like everybody you got to get John Mason and he's great and that that was pretty crazy lucky for me because Conway how would you how would you think about Conway right he's from Arkansas and kind of a country guy but his big giant hit that launched him was it's only make believe was that funny he I don't even remember how he described that boys I know he's singing fun stuff. The fun part is there there is a lot of luck.

Jay Franze 34:40

You mentioned Jimmy Bowen his camp especially back in the day was amazing the the artists he's worked with the team of people that he surrounded himself with from the engineers and everybody else the musicians just an amazing team.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

What was that relationship like so Jimmy Bowen earlier part of my book and this is crazy lucky too uh in the right place at the right time long story as short as I can get it I grew up in North Hollywood and and Mike Kerb and I played in bands together the Mike Kerb congregation or the Marquettes whatever one he'd play the keyboards and me the guitar. When I was in my seventh year college law school third year up at UC Berkeley I was reading in the San Francisco newspaper about this young guy who just sold his company for two million dollars to MGM Mike Curb and I thought oh my gosh I'm finally gonna get a break because this guy I know is the president of the record company and um I got back down to LA a couple months later and I called Mike and he said oh man sorry to tell you John they fired me I'm not the president anymore but you should call his name was Steve Knapp a lawyer there that I hired because he may need help. He actually did and my job at MGM Records was to get them out of every contract that Mike did including with Sammy Davis Jr. and the Osmonds it's crazy. But I found in that time if I stayed in my little hole in the wall office that didn't have any windows and nobody knew I was there I wasn't going to lose my job. And I'm seeing this rotating group of uh presidents that were all from foreign countries it was called Polygram that owned it I finally saw a memo that said we have a new president he's coming next Tuesday and his his name is Jimmy Bowen and I thought I'm gonna go out he he was coming up to MGM Records on Sunset Boulevard in LA and I thought I'm gonna sit in the lobby and I'm gonna meet this guy from day one because we're finally going to have an American talented guy. He'd already produced Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin so he came in a big Mercedes Benz limousine this is 72 and um I was sitting in the lobby and then I was 23 20 I mean 24 and I said Mr. Bowen I'm John Mason I'm a contract lawyer here I'd love to just get a chance to talk to you said all right kid come up at one o'clock and got in the office and said what what do you want to know I said how how come you came to work in a Mercedes limousine I have never seen that before my dad's a butcher and he just laughed and he said I had so many drunk driving tickets I had to get a car and driver as part of my contract and then five minutes later he said you're gonna be my lawyer and I I didn't even go up there to try to be his lawyer. I just didn't want to get fired.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

So from that day to this day Bowen has been my client and I love the guy even now this week we are working on some I am for him continuing royalties from Dean Martin everybody loves somebody I mean it's lucky right that I was there that day that Bowen walked in yes well it's a testament to your personality I mean you got that connection based on your relationship just how you said you like to get your clients now is based on a relationship a gut feeling and intuition and so he did the same thing. So maybe you just saw that as an example and kind of took that lead.

Patience, Burnout, And Sustainable Careers

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I just figured out by then you you you have to take advantage of an opportunity and he was coming in the door and I was made it my point to go sit in front of him. Made your own luck yeah well in that way yeah but I was there right place at the right time in all the decades that two decades I should say that Bowen ran every company in Nashville he had a reputation for firing everybody the first day and then asking them to apply for their job if they wanted to stay and I survived all of that and I'm still here wow wow you also mentioned Mike Kirby Mike Mike and I are still close friends and we have been friends I can literally say for 70 years and that that's a for me just one of the most wonderful things I can say about somebody and we are as close today as we ever have been and so did you have a relationship with him business wise with his label? Yes. I still I would say I've been a conciliary and a a lawyer who can help Mike get through concepts and ideas and it's all him mike Mike's done it all but how we structure how they structure I don't represent the company against artists because I don't do that but how they build and how they develop is is definitely something that I still do. He's got some some great artists over there I mean it's impressive to see what he's done and now you drive through Nashville and you see his name on every building around he's pretty impressive within himself as well yes all right so if somebody reads your book today what's the one thing you hope they can take from your book anyone can be successful in whatever they want to do if they dedicate themselves to build around the core you still have to have the the talent to get there and the perseverance to stay with it and especially here in Nashville where everybody gets rejected all the time all the people that I talk about in the book from from me to Olivia Newtonjohn and Randy Travis you know Randy's one of the best examples of somebody that got rejected by everybody but has a golden voice and his then manager Lib Hatcher kept knocking on the door and knocking on the door go to the Gloria Stefan chapter and read about when we met in the garage in Miami with no air conditioning and the family working there to writing working go to the bus accident she's paralyzed effectively for two yeah two years comes out and writes coming out of the dark it's inspiration. That's really what I want people to finish that book and go, that was awesome. I'm inspired by Quincy Jones and I'm inspired by Michael Jackson. I didn't trash Michael Jackson in the book he is a super talented guy that chose a path and walked that path so long answer to your question. That's what I hope people take away from Crazy Lucky.

Jay Franze 41:29

All right sir well we do this thing here we call unsung heroes where we take a moment to shine the light on somebody who's worked behind the scenes or somebody who may have supported you along the way do you have anybody that you'd like to shine a little light on Jimmy Bowen you know in addition to Conway Twitty and Reba he just stood by me and that's why we're together still 54 years now.

Bad Luck, Bad Actors, And Being Prepared

SPEAKER_02 41:51

But I said it about Conway in and when we're in country music those guys made the music of the 80s and night and Tony Brown client friend who who lives here that produced Reba and George Strait I I have more people than you have time to listen to who've who've helped and guided my career.

Jay Franze 42:11

Well I think that's a good note for us to to pause here all right well we have done it we've reached the top of the hour which does mean we've reached the end of the show and if you've enjoyed the show well tell a friend and Miss Tiffany. If you have not tell two if you have not tell two you can reach out to both of us hell you can reach out to all three of us over at jfranzy.com we will be happy to keep this conversation and any other going.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Sir we cannot thank you enough for being here tonight it's been an absolute pleasure we would like to leave the final words to you I really love I love work talking to you guys I love the stories I love the people that we're talking about and obviously you do too and that makes it special to talk about them.

Jay Franze 42:51

Yeah all right folks on that note have a good night thanks for listening to the Jay Franzi show make sure you visit us at jfranzi.com follow connect and stay hello